"But sometimes when I hear people quote the Bible, I just want to throw up. Can I say that? Can I get that off my chest? Sometimes when people are backing up their points and the Bible is used to prove that they are right, everything within me says, "there's no way that's what God meant by that verse."
Yeah, yup!
I couldn't have said it any better myself. And if I'm real honest sometimes I can look at how I've "used" scripture to back up my point. ouch!
I love the honesty in admitting where the Bible is difficult. In Brick World (chapter 1 reference) everything in me wants to give a rational explanation of "this is why God says this, or this is why he did that".. you know what I mean? But Rob's honesty in just saying, dang, this stuff about killing innocent people, and other tough things that are definetly in the Bible are tough stuff... And yet the trampoline analogy is is so beautiful, that instead of defending we can do life, jump and be honest about stuff when its tough.
"The love your neighbor as yourself" is pretty tough too.. I mean I have honestly had people, Christian people, not get why we would adopt from Africa, or even more so why when there are problems in the US that we would give our lives to intentionally loving Ugandans in the midst of struggle. These are sincere people who love God, but who read "love your neighbor" differently than us. They read neighbor as America, not the world. Now I totally understand that they are sincere and for the most part good people who have caring hearts. So what do I do with that? Do I tell them their wrong and I'm right, or do we do what we are doing, namely.. loving our neighbors well both here and in Africa and allow actions to speak louder. Its easy to talk about this stuff and a lot harder to live. ha
A few of the parts I really liked in Yoke were: --"God gives us the power to make things happen. It's up to us if they get done." This comes back to what Dave said. Actions speak louder than words.
--"Truth leads to more truth." Yup.
--"When everything gets answered, it's fake." Gotta keep an open mind.
--"Who is your neighbor?" This is interesting to think about. The first thought I have is, all of my fellow human beings. Does this extend to other species?
--"Everybody thinks their opinion is the right one, if they didn't, they'd get a new one." I love this statement.
--"When somebody tells you about the bible, they are just telling you their interpretation." I've never really thought about it like that.
--"Scripture along should not be our guide." Wow - again, good point.
I liked this quote, "the more insight I gain, the more I realize how much I don't know." This reminded me of what Paul said at the end of Romans 11, "Oh, the depth of the riches of both the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgements and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or how became His counselor? Or who has first given Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to Him be the glory forever. Amen." Paul just went through 11 chapters of deep, intense doctrine and he gets to a point where he sees that he hasn't even scratched the surface of Gods knowledge and depths and his only choice is to worship! I have come to the realization many times that I know God so little and there are depths of God that I will never get to, or probably am never supposed to...so I must worship the Lord. It's like what Josey said about not knowing everything and being okay with that. This is very difficult for me.
I love the idea of community in this chapter of wrestling and struggling with difficult parts of the bible and life as a community. This Christian life wasn't meant to be lived out alone, it's meant to be lived out in the context of community. Page 53, 1st paragraph, I just read it again.
The historical references about rabbis, hell, the book of Revelation following the sequence of events of the Domitian games, etc.; this is great stuff! The writers had a purpose in writing the bible, to reach those who didn't know the truth of Jesus and tell them that He is the real King or better than some fake goddess.
I took me aback when I first read what Rob said about "Scripture alone" is our guide and it not being true. The footnote helped me understand what he meant. We must be grounded in scripture but we interpret the bible with the help of God's Spirit, in communities, that is to say with the help of our friends.
Dave, it is easier to talk about loving our neighbors and carring of for widows and orphans, etc. it's much harder to live out. I am so bad at this, "I stinketh!". Will you guys help me to be accountable to this? You're like my "band of brothers", my community right now.
Ryan, good question about animals. They are God's creatures too and we need to care about their wellbeing too.
You guys are really on the ball, great discussion so far. I finally feel like a human again, so I've got that going for me, which is nice. I think you guys hit on most of the things that I wanted to talk about, but I have a few more thoughts. First, I struggle with the fact that humans with all of our errors in judgment and agendas are supposed to interpret the bible. I guess that is a place where we must have the faith that the spirit was with those who have made the interpretations throughout history that we use today.
Also, I think that we are really scared of discussing the meaning of scriptures. Usually if someone's opinion differs from mine I just smile and think that's ok, they just have a different interpretation. Maybe that is ok. But maybe we are supposed to have passionate discussions about interpretations of the bible. I certainly shy away from conflict, and don't enjoy putting myself out there so someone can figure out how little I know about the bible. Just reading this chapter has made me think about starting to read scripture together with my wife so that I can tell her how right I am and how she needs to submit to me...just kidding, I think it would be good to have a discussion about scripture with someone who will tell me when I am wrong. You guys probably do this already, but I was just thinking it would be a good way to have some communal interpretation instead of just my own opinion about a verse. Plus I could make her read it to me. I don't remember the last time I had a good discussion about the interpretation of a verse.
I love his comment about finding out what God is doing in the world right now, today but I don't really understand it. Obviously our world has changed since the days of Jesus, and no one wrote about what it would be like. So I guess what he is trying to say is that part of interpreting scripture is finding out what God is up to now? Cool.
Hey Dave, since you are a psychiatry major or whatever it is, could you start a little discussion about like absolute truths, and stuff like that. I would start it, but I have no idea what I am talking about.
Absolute truth you say? Well, step into my office.... just kidding, honestly its a really tough decision. Basically Absolute Truth(with a capital T, that's really important in the philosophy world, total dorks...) basically means there is Truth that doesn't depend on anything else, otherwise known as ontilogical Truth. It is true regardless of what people believe. Its the notion that there are Truths in the universe that we may all have opinions about, but regardless of what we say or do, it is true.... for ex: Living generously is the best way to live. .. well, I could think that is the best way to live and someone who has been generous may have been screwed over a bunch and so they would say that it is a horrible way to live.. ontilogical Truth (or Absolute as you lay people call it, haha) would say that it doesn't matter what either one of us says about it, it is either true or its not. The problem, and Rob touched on it in this chapter, whenever someone says that they have absolute truth on a particular subject, they are merely referencing their beliefs about that "absolute Truth," not the Truth itself.
Now I know your heads are spinning because of the lack of knowledge you all have on the subject, but trust me, I have absolute knowledge, so no need looking into it.
Make sense... so its always a bit scary, especially when Christians aren't willing to discuss or talk about certain things because they already "know what the Bible says" on that subject, because what they are really saying is that they are unwilling to discuss because they think their opinion on this absolute Truth is it, and there's nothing more to say.
Where does this truth that does not depend on anything else come from?
Can we know absolute truth or can we only have opinions about it?
I really love what Rob is saying about being in communities and discussing ideas and beliefs. Ryan has a good quote in his emails. It says, “The mind is like an umbrella, it only works when it is open.” Or like what Socrates said, “One thing only I know, and that is that I know nothing.” Meaning we can always learn something. We never know it all.
RB, Its tough to know if we can know Truth, although of course I believe we can, its a tough argument.
I would say this though... it puts us in a good position to hold that we may be wrong... or another way to put it is it allows for us to be humble in our approach. We can be sure about what we believe and there are some fundamentals, especially to faith.. but we can't be scared to ask good questions that many Christians especially are afraid to ask.
I would hope that we are all after Truth anyway, so why should we be scared to find it?
This all brings up tons of good questions though... I beleive that because of God, we can know Truth, but when applied to life, which is all we have anyways, it is better to approach people in ways that are more humble, or as seekers, rather than those who know it all.
8 comments:
"But sometimes when I hear people quote the Bible, I just want to throw up. Can I say that? Can I get that off my chest? Sometimes when people are backing up their points and the Bible is used to prove that they are right, everything within me says, "there's no way that's what God meant by that verse."
Yeah, yup!
I couldn't have said it any better myself. And if I'm real honest sometimes I can look at how I've "used" scripture to back up my point. ouch!
I love the honesty in admitting where the Bible is difficult. In Brick World (chapter 1 reference) everything in me wants to give a rational explanation of "this is why God says this, or this is why he did that".. you know what I mean? But Rob's honesty in just saying, dang, this stuff about killing innocent people, and other tough things that are definetly in the Bible are tough stuff... And yet the trampoline analogy is is so beautiful, that instead of defending we can do life, jump and be honest about stuff when its tough.
"The love your neighbor as yourself" is pretty tough too.. I mean I have honestly had people, Christian people, not get why we would adopt from Africa, or even more so why when there are problems in the US that we would give our lives to intentionally loving Ugandans in the midst of struggle. These are sincere people who love God, but who read "love your neighbor" differently than us. They read neighbor as America, not the world. Now I totally understand that they are sincere and for the most part good people who have caring hearts. So what do I do with that? Do I tell them their wrong and I'm right, or do we do what we are doing, namely.. loving our neighbors well both here and in Africa and allow actions to speak louder. Its easy to talk about this stuff and a lot harder to live. ha
Ok, more of the chapter later....
True. People interpret things differently.
A few of the parts I really liked in Yoke were:
--"God gives us the power to make things happen. It's up to us if they get done." This comes back to what Dave said. Actions speak louder than words.
--"Truth leads to more truth." Yup.
--"When everything gets answered, it's fake." Gotta keep an open mind.
--"Who is your neighbor?" This is interesting to think about. The first thought I have is, all of my fellow human beings. Does this extend to other species?
--"Everybody thinks their opinion is the right one, if they didn't, they'd get a new one." I love this statement.
--"When somebody tells you about the bible, they are just telling you their interpretation." I've never really thought about it like that.
--"Scripture along should not be our guide." Wow - again, good point.
I really liked this chapter.
I liked this quote, "the more insight I gain, the more I realize how much I don't know." This reminded me of what Paul said at the end of Romans 11, "Oh, the depth of the riches of both the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgements and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or how became His counselor? Or who has first given Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to Him be the glory forever. Amen." Paul just went through 11 chapters of deep, intense doctrine and he gets to a point where he sees that he hasn't even scratched the surface of Gods knowledge and depths and his only choice is to worship! I have come to the realization many times that I know God so little and there are depths of God that I will never get to, or probably am never supposed to...so I must worship the Lord. It's like what Josey said about not knowing everything and being okay with that. This is very difficult for me.
I love the idea of community in this chapter of wrestling and struggling with difficult parts of the bible and life as a community. This Christian life wasn't meant to be lived out alone, it's meant to be lived out in the context of community. Page 53, 1st paragraph, I just read it again.
The historical references about rabbis, hell, the book of Revelation following the sequence of events of the Domitian games, etc.; this is great stuff! The writers had a purpose in writing the bible, to reach those who didn't know the truth of Jesus and tell them that He is the real King or better than some fake goddess.
I took me aback when I first read what Rob said about "Scripture alone" is our guide and it not being true. The footnote helped me understand what he meant. We must be grounded in scripture but we interpret the bible with the help of God's Spirit, in communities, that is to say with the help of our friends.
Dave, it is easier to talk about loving our neighbors and carring of for widows and orphans, etc. it's much harder to live out. I am so bad at this, "I stinketh!". Will you guys help me to be accountable to this? You're like my "band of brothers", my community right now.
Ryan, good question about animals. They are God's creatures too and we need to care about their wellbeing too.
Later ya'll!
You guys are really on the ball, great discussion so far. I finally feel like a human again, so I've got that going for me, which is nice. I think you guys hit on most of the things that I wanted to talk about, but I have a few more thoughts. First, I struggle with the fact that humans with all of our errors in judgment and agendas are supposed to interpret the bible. I guess that is a place where we must have the faith that the spirit was with those who have made the interpretations throughout history that we use today.
Also, I think that we are really scared of discussing the meaning of scriptures. Usually if someone's opinion differs from mine I just smile and think that's ok, they just have a different interpretation. Maybe that is ok. But maybe we are supposed to have passionate discussions about interpretations of the bible. I certainly shy away from conflict, and don't enjoy putting myself out there so someone can figure out how little I know about the bible. Just reading this chapter has made me think about starting to read scripture together with my wife so that I can tell her how right I am and how she needs to submit to me...just kidding, I think it would be good to have a discussion about scripture with someone who will tell me when I am wrong. You guys probably do this already, but I was just thinking it would be a good way to have some communal interpretation instead of just my own opinion about a verse. Plus I could make her read it to me. I don't remember the last time I had a good discussion about the interpretation of a verse.
I love his comment about finding out what God is doing in the world right now, today but I don't really understand it. Obviously our world has changed since the days of Jesus, and no one wrote about what it would be like. So I guess what he is trying to say is that part of interpreting scripture is finding out what God is up to now?
Cool.
Hey Dave, since you are a psychiatry major or whatever it is, could you start a little discussion about like absolute truths, and stuff like that. I would start it, but I have no idea what I am talking about.
"I stinketh."
Hilarious.
Absolute truth you say? Well, step into my office.... just kidding, honestly its a really tough decision. Basically Absolute Truth(with a capital T, that's really important in the philosophy world, total dorks...) basically means there is Truth that doesn't depend on anything else, otherwise known as ontilogical Truth. It is true regardless of what people believe. Its the notion that there are Truths in the universe that we may all have opinions about, but regardless of what we say or do, it is true.... for ex: Living generously is the best way to live. .. well, I could think that is the best way to live and someone who has been generous may have been screwed over a bunch and so they would say that it is a horrible way to live.. ontilogical Truth (or Absolute as you lay people call it, haha) would say that it doesn't matter what either one of us says about it, it is either true or its not.
The problem, and Rob touched on it in this chapter, whenever someone says that they have absolute truth on a particular subject, they are merely referencing their beliefs about that "absolute Truth," not the Truth itself.
Now I know your heads are spinning because of the lack of knowledge you all have on the subject, but trust me, I have absolute knowledge, so no need looking into it.
Make sense... so its always a bit scary, especially when Christians aren't willing to discuss or talk about certain things because they already "know what the Bible says" on that subject, because what they are really saying is that they are unwilling to discuss because they think their opinion on this absolute Truth is it, and there's nothing more to say.
How then do we know what absolute truth is?
Where does this truth that does not depend on anything else come from?
Can we know absolute truth or can we only have opinions about it?
I really love what Rob is saying about being in communities and discussing ideas and beliefs. Ryan has a good quote in his emails. It says, “The mind is like an umbrella, it only works when it is open.” Or like what Socrates said, “One thing only I know, and that is that I know nothing.” Meaning we can always learn something. We never know it all.
RB,
Its tough to know if we can know Truth, although of course I believe we can, its a tough argument.
I would say this though... it puts us in a good position to hold that we may be wrong... or another way to put it is it allows for us to be humble in our approach. We can be sure about what we believe and there are some fundamentals, especially to faith.. but we can't be scared to ask good questions that many Christians especially are afraid to ask.
I would hope that we are all after Truth anyway, so why should we be scared to find it?
This all brings up tons of good questions though... I beleive that because of God, we can know Truth, but when applied to life, which is all we have anyways, it is better to approach people in ways that are more humble, or as seekers, rather than those who know it all.
peace out
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