I just read something on MSN that was interesting and disturbing and I thought kind of tied into this first chapter of Velvet Elvis in a way. The article was about vivisection and how activists are becoming more bold in intimidating scientists who experiment on animals. But one comment from a spokes person from the Animal Liberation Front blew me away. The paragraph says, "Accompanying the attacks is increasingly tough talk from activists such as Dr. Jerry Vlasak, a spokesman for the Animal Liberation Front press office. In an interview with The Associated Press, he said he is not encouraging anyone to commit murder, but "if you had to hurt somebody or intimidate them or kill them, it would be morally justifiable." These people are so passionate about there cause that they could (though in a twisted and corrupt way) justify the murder of a human being. Now I'm not discussing the morality of animal experimentation, but I am interested in this groups passion. Rob says on page 11 after talking about the absurdity of thinking that we can ever really "arrive" at a perfect knowledge of God and challenging us to grow, think and change and how we are to live out trust in Jesus, "The challenge for Christians then is to live with great passion and conviction, remaining open and flexible, aware that this life is not the last painting." As a Christian one knows this life isn't all there is, and that this life is very short. James 4:14 says, "Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away." So let's make this life count for eternity! Let's be passionate. Let's not waste it, like John Piper says, on collecting sea shells and improving our handy cap. (Which by the way can be fun activities) I need to put aside silly vanities and get to work helping people see Jesus through loving actions and through loving and true words. Matt. 28:19-20.
That's all for me tonight. I'm spent. I'll be writing about springs, bricks, questions and joy (which I'm really excited about) later. By the way I would second Rob's endorsement of John Piper in the books section on Joy. Piper has rocked my world for a few years now. And has made me question and rethink a lot of things.
Later fellow padawan learners. Did I just through in a Star Wars reference...I guess I just did. I'm expecting some hazing about that one.
I have read this all a while back and going back over it I have definitely picked up on some different things than I did the first time around. On page 12, at the bottom he says "for many people the word Christian conjures up all sorts of images that have nothing to do with Jesus and how he taught us to live." This may have never been so true as it is right now. I even know in my own life, I add things left and right to the word Christian that have nothing to do with Christ. I love what what Jesus says in John, that he "has come to bring life and life to the full." Anytime I way others down or myself with tons of things that don't bring life to the full, I can rest assured that it's probably not of Jesus... But how often I do this. The trampoline discussion is also of great interest to me and personally I love the analogy between it and our lives. I also found the writings about how "everyone follows somebody," and how if we are honest and if I'm honest with myself how often I am simply following others, albeit good or bad. He then goes on to say that Jesus is simply the person he desires to follow and that he believes that he follows him because it is the best possible way to live. So often I assimilate "best" with "easiest" and so although I know in my heart that following Jesus, ie. loving your enemy, living generously, putting others before you even to the point of death, forgiving and being full of grace is a better way to live it often isn't the easiest by any means. In fact, I sometime hate the fact that God is calling me to love those who don't have any desire to love me back. I remember a time in Uganda where we had been there for about 2 months and I was riding on the back of a piki (motorcycle driven by a Uganda driver) after having been screwed so many times, taken advantage of and lied to by Ugandans how much easier it was to love "my neighbor" from half way across the world than it was to actually love them. I am often reminded of how I like the "idea" of loving people much more than I actually like loving people and how I like the "idea" of grace than actually extending grace to people who are so far from deserving a bit of it. Jumping ahead a bit.... page 26 he speaks of the springs on a trampoline and gives an example of Jesus's "Dad," Larry being found and how that would rock a lot of Christian worlds, if your faith and your outlook on life was in Brickworld. I think its funny because know so many people like this and for years, especially in college I always felt really defensive about my faith and that if someone even pointed out one thing that seemed to come against me , I felt like the whole wall was going to come down. I guess all I am saying is can relate and also how I desire and hopefully am starting to view life with Christ a little more like a trampoline. Lastly, I love that God has not only allowed room for questions in our faith, but even encourages them. I love that about God, he know how screwed up I am and how little I really know, "although of course I act as if I have life down," haha ridiculous! Alright thats all for now until I find some reason to make fun of your comments. Oh yeah and Ryan B., ummmm your Star Wars reference was so dorky that it luckily went right over my head.
Dave - I liked the part about bricks vs. springs too. It is amazing how we get so defensive about things we believe in. While we really should just be concerned with giving other people the opportunity to see what we see.
RB - I agree about the animal rights activism example. I think we all need to keep an open mind and take a step back. Bell mentions in Chap 1 that we spend so much time talking about how RIGHT WE ARE, and that leads us to think that EVERYONE else is wrong.
Some other high points from the book so far...
We definitely need to evolve with our religious thinking.
Too many people use the word "Christian" as an anchor. They have all sorts of images associated with it. Most of them have nothing to do with Jesus and being a good person.
When we learn something that seems brand new, it is often the discovery of something that's been there all along. It just got lost. So true.
I love this line: "Everyone has faith. Everybody is following somebody." Again, so true.
I also liked this: Those with strong religious beliefs are often seen as extreme and close minded. But in reality, they are the ones who start questioning things and traditions. They are asking "why?"
Dave, I also liked the section on bricks and springs. Often I get defensive when I hear something or someone question something that I believe to be true especially about Jesus, the bible, morality, politics, etc. It's not about defending the wall, it's like what Ryan said, it's about giving others the chance to see what we see. I have found that talking with people and in getting to know people two great questions are simply, "What?" and "Why?". "What do you think about this?", "Why do you think this way?", "Why do you believe this way?", "Why don't you believe this or that?" and asking because I really want to know that person and what makes that person tick.
I liked this quote, "Questions aren't scary, what's scary is when people don't have any". We have to "Test everything and hold fast to that which is good." 1 Thessalonians 5, and this means asking tough questions, testing what is said or taught in light of scripture, and struggling and thinking and discussing. Life's a lot more interesting when you ask questions anyway.
I have some questions.
If we are to be evolving in our religous thinking does this mean that we can't know things for sure?
Or that what is true (really about religion or anything) is just relative to the individual?
Can we know anything for sure about Jesus and religion?
What if every thing we've been taught and thought is completely wrong?
What if Rob is wrong and we can't or aren't suppose to change?
So, I just got off a 30 hour shift at noon, and have another one tomorrow, so this is going to short. I have listened to this book on CD before, but I didn't remember much about it. I love the things that you guys have brought up so far. A few things that came across to me: Number one, I don't need to know everything, be sure about everything, and have answers to everything. I feel like that gives me freedom. I love that God is the point, and that all of our beliefs about him and our doctrines don't matter as much. They may point us towards God, but they might be wrong, and if they are wrong, that doesn't mean God isn't there or that He has changed. To me, in my life, the thing I need to remember the most from this is that it matters much less what I say about what I believe in, and matters much more how I live my life to show what I believe. It is tough to admit how much we don't know about stuff. I feel encouraged to be ok with not knowing, but desiring to learn more.
love it all.. way to go, you all are smarter than I was expecting. just kidding...
Anyway, being that I was a philosophy major, all that RB was asking is what I talked about, listened to and studied for, well for me it was five years, could've been four. haha anyway, I think we can know things, but being that we/I am messed up and totally fallible, I live as if I know things(ie.. truths about putting others first, loving even when it makes know sense, caring for the poor, defending life however and wherever I see it being taken, and on and on...) But the second I claim to hold the definetive Truth on any of that, then I become like that painter of the Velvet Elvis painting who signs it and says thats the last painting that needs to be painted. I guess all I am saying is that actions speak much louder than words. I can say all day what I believe to be true, but as you look at my life you really get to see what I believe. I have heard great examples of things like this. ie. shane claiborne has this great quote in Irresistable Revolution that says "you may be all about "pro-life" and anti-abortion and thats great, but as soon as you say that you better be willing to adopt an unwanted baby just as quick." Again , actions are our true picture of what we believe, not our words.
So all that to say, "we speak to the Truths of things not by our words or our "beliefs" but instead by the way we live.
7 comments:
I just read something on MSN that was interesting and disturbing and I thought kind of tied into this first chapter of Velvet Elvis in a way. The article was about vivisection and how activists are becoming more bold in intimidating scientists who experiment on animals. But one comment from a spokes person from the Animal Liberation Front blew me away. The paragraph says, "Accompanying the attacks is increasingly tough talk from activists such as Dr. Jerry Vlasak, a spokesman for the Animal Liberation Front press office. In an interview with The Associated Press, he said he is not encouraging anyone to commit murder, but "if you had to hurt somebody or intimidate them or kill them, it would be morally justifiable." These people are so passionate about there cause that they could (though in a twisted and corrupt way) justify the murder of a human being. Now I'm not discussing the morality of animal experimentation, but I am interested in this groups passion. Rob says on page 11 after talking about the absurdity of thinking that we can ever really "arrive" at a perfect knowledge of God and challenging us to grow, think and change and how we are to live out trust in Jesus, "The challenge for Christians then is to live with great passion and conviction, remaining open and flexible, aware that this life is not the last painting." As a Christian one knows this life isn't all there is, and that this life is very short. James 4:14 says, "Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away." So let's make this life count for eternity! Let's be passionate. Let's not waste it, like John Piper says, on collecting sea shells and improving our handy cap. (Which by the way can be fun activities) I need to put aside silly vanities and get to work helping people see Jesus through loving actions and through loving and true words. Matt. 28:19-20.
That's all for me tonight. I'm spent. I'll be writing about springs, bricks, questions and joy (which I'm really excited about) later. By the way I would second Rob's endorsement of John Piper in the books section on Joy. Piper has rocked my world for a few years now. And has made me question and rethink a lot of things.
Later fellow padawan learners. Did I just through in a Star Wars reference...I guess I just did. I'm expecting some hazing about that one.
I have read this all a while back and going back over it I have definitely picked up on some different things than I did the first time around. On page 12, at the bottom he says "for many people the word Christian conjures up all sorts of images that have nothing to do with Jesus and how he taught us to live." This may have never been so true as it is right now. I even know in my own life, I add things left and right to the word Christian that have nothing to do with Christ. I love what what Jesus says in John, that he "has come to bring life and life to the full." Anytime I way others down or myself with tons of things that don't bring life to the full, I can rest assured that it's probably not of Jesus... But how often I do this.
The trampoline discussion is also of great interest to me and personally I love the analogy between it and our lives. I also found the writings about how "everyone follows somebody," and how if we are honest and if I'm honest with myself how often I am simply following others, albeit good or bad. He then goes on to say that Jesus is simply the person he desires to follow and that he believes that he follows him because it is the best possible way to live. So often I assimilate "best" with "easiest" and so although I know in my heart that following Jesus, ie. loving your enemy, living generously, putting others before you even to the point of death, forgiving and being full of grace is a better way to live it often isn't the easiest by any means. In fact, I sometime hate the fact that God is calling me to love those who don't have any desire to love me back. I remember a time in Uganda where we had been there for about 2 months and I was riding on the back of a piki (motorcycle driven by a Uganda driver) after having been screwed so many times, taken advantage of and lied to by Ugandans how much easier it was to love "my neighbor" from half way across the world than it was to actually love them. I am often reminded of how I like the "idea" of loving people much more than I actually like loving people and how I like the "idea" of grace than actually extending grace to people who are so far from deserving a bit of it.
Jumping ahead a bit.... page 26 he speaks of the springs on a trampoline and gives an example of Jesus's "Dad," Larry being found and how that would rock a lot of Christian worlds, if your faith and your outlook on life was in Brickworld. I think its funny because know so many people like this and for years, especially in college I always felt really defensive about my faith and that if someone even pointed out one thing that seemed to come against me , I felt like the whole wall was going to come down. I guess all I am saying is can relate and also how I desire and hopefully am starting to view life with Christ a little more like a trampoline.
Lastly, I love that God has not only allowed room for questions in our faith, but even encourages them. I love that about God, he know how screwed up I am and how little I really know, "although of course I act as if I have life down," haha ridiculous! Alright thats all for now until I find some reason to make fun of your comments.
Oh yeah and Ryan B., ummmm your Star Wars reference was so dorky that it luckily went right over my head.
Dave - I liked the part about bricks vs. springs too. It is amazing how we get so defensive about things we believe in. While we really should just be concerned with giving other people the opportunity to see what we see.
RB - I agree about the animal rights activism example. I think we all need to keep an open mind and take a step back. Bell mentions in Chap 1 that we spend so much time talking about how RIGHT WE ARE, and that leads us to think that EVERYONE else is wrong.
Some other high points from the book so far...
We definitely need to evolve with our religious thinking.
Too many people use the word "Christian" as an anchor. They have all sorts of images associated with it. Most of them have nothing to do with Jesus and being a good person.
When we learn something that seems brand new, it is often the discovery of something that's been there all along. It just got lost. So true.
I love this line: "Everyone has faith. Everybody is following somebody." Again, so true.
I also liked this: Those with strong religious beliefs are often seen as extreme and close minded. But in reality, they are the ones who start questioning things and traditions. They are asking "why?"
Out...
Dave, I also liked the section on bricks and springs. Often I get defensive when I hear something or someone question something that I believe to be true especially about Jesus, the bible, morality, politics, etc. It's not about defending the wall, it's like what Ryan said, it's about giving others the chance to see what we see. I have found that talking with people and in getting to know people two great questions are simply, "What?" and "Why?". "What do you think about this?", "Why do you think this way?", "Why do you believe this way?", "Why don't you believe this or that?" and asking because I really want to know that person and what makes that person tick.
I liked this quote, "Questions aren't scary, what's scary is when people don't have any". We have to "Test everything and hold fast to that which is good." 1 Thessalonians 5, and this means asking tough questions, testing what is said or taught in light of scripture, and struggling and thinking and discussing. Life's a lot more interesting when you ask questions anyway.
I have some questions.
If we are to be evolving in our religous thinking does this mean that we can't know things for sure?
Or that what is true (really about religion or anything) is just relative to the individual?
Can we know anything for sure about Jesus and religion?
What if every thing we've been taught and thought is completely wrong?
What if Rob is wrong and we can't or aren't suppose to change?
I am just rambling now? Probably.
I hope you guys are doing well.
"Questions aren't scary, what's scary is when people don't have any".
Oh yeah - I like that.
"Can we know anything for sure about Jesus and religion?"
I've really started to think about that since reading this book. What do we really know?
I think that's why I love it when a pastor can take teachings from the bible and relate them to current times.
I'm working on Chapter 2.
So, I just got off a 30 hour shift at noon, and have another one tomorrow, so this is going to short. I have listened to this book on CD before, but I didn't remember much about it. I love the things that you guys have brought up so far. A few things that came across to me: Number one, I don't need to know everything, be sure about everything, and have answers to everything. I feel like that gives me freedom. I love that God is the point, and that all of our beliefs about him and our doctrines don't matter as much. They may point us towards God, but they might be wrong, and if they are wrong, that doesn't mean God isn't there or that He has changed. To me, in my life, the thing I need to remember the most from this is that it matters much less what I say about what I believe in, and matters much more how I live my life to show what I believe.
It is tough to admit how much we don't know about stuff. I feel encouraged to be ok with not knowing, but desiring to learn more.
love it all.. way to go, you all are smarter than I was expecting.
just kidding...
Anyway, being that I was a philosophy major, all that RB was asking is what I talked about, listened to and studied for, well for me it was five years, could've been four. haha
anyway, I think we can know things, but being that we/I am messed up and totally fallible, I live as if I know things(ie.. truths about putting others first, loving even when it makes know sense, caring for the poor, defending life however and wherever I see it being taken, and on and on...) But the second I claim to hold the definetive Truth on any of that, then I become like that painter of the Velvet Elvis painting who signs it and says thats the last painting that needs to be painted.
I guess all I am saying is that actions speak much louder than words. I can say all day what I believe to be true, but as you look at my life you really get to see what I believe.
I have heard great examples of things like this. ie. shane claiborne has this great quote in Irresistable Revolution that says "you may be all about "pro-life" and anti-abortion and thats great, but as soon as you say that you better be willing to adopt an unwanted baby just as quick." Again , actions are our true picture of what we believe, not our words.
So all that to say, "we speak to the Truths of things not by our words or our "beliefs" but instead by the way we live.
peace out!
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